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Dunkirk Spitfire WIP update

Honestly Baz, you have no consideration for a chap’s wallet. What a friendly looking place to hang one’s flying helmet! The less bulging canopy on the Mk.I looks just right to me.
 
That is looking wonderful. Thank you for all the work.

As for "are people going to be happy with 30 pumps to get the gear down?" it takes nearer 40 key presses to get the wheels up or down on the IL-2 F3F!
 
Thanks David. The other side-effect to "Spitfire knuckle" was "Spitfire Wobble" set up by novice Spitfire pilots having had to switch hands and controlling the stick with their left, developing a sympathetic motion to the right, pump hand. It's not easy, even on a computer. I swap the mouse hand for pump-clicking and hold the aeroplane steady with my left. That's the theory anyway!:engel016:
 
Looks fantastic Barry. Any chance of including some of the different mirror types that where added as hide able objects?

Matt
 
We'd look at that Matt. It is always difficult to achieve a good balance between what is desirable and what is practical. The flap indicator is a classic example. I still can't work out why the early cockpits had the hole in the panel for it and the warning placard just below and even the mounting bolt holes for it but did not fit it yet the Mk1A had it fitted. The gauge must have existed in the earlier days so why not fit it? Some Mk1As retained the pump gear lever too. I suppose quite a few airframes were modified and altered in the field with what was available.
 
bazzar said:
The Day/Night scheme as it was called, didn't stop at the airframe either, the oleo legs and wheels were also painted black/white. By late 1940 everything was an even "sky" colour. By mid-war they also dropped the "A" and "B" schemes for odd and even code numbers. BTW thankyou for a really engaging RTW trip, great fun to read.:engel016:
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Thanks Bazz, I am glad you enjoyed it and hope the screenshots I did of your AC did them justice.

Bomber_12th said:
The half black/half white lower surfaces was simply an early "IFF" friendly-foe identifier so that trigger-happy Allied gunners on the ground wouldn't shoot down Hurricanes and Spitfires thinking them to be enemy 109's (same concept as the ID bands and invasion stripes used later in the war) - as long as they saw the distinctive black/white lower surfaces, they'd know they were friendlies. As noted, the practice of painting the aircraft this way didn't last very long into WWII.
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I had not heard the story that it was an attempt at IFF, makes more sense that what the old gentleman at the museum told me (he looked like had first hand knowledge so I believed him). Either way since it was phased out so quickly it must not have worked that well.
 
MDIvey said:
Looks fantastic Barry. Any chance of including some of the different mirror types that where added as hide able objects?

Matt
Click to expand...

That wouldn't be a bad idea!

For the early MK.I, you could have the choice of the 'MG' type of mirror fitted by individual pilots and as seen on N3200, or the choice of no mirror, as per P9374.

For the later MK.I you could have the option of what became the standard mirror fitted to late MK.Is, MK.IIs, and MK.Vs.

As for the flap gauge, the consensus seems to be that it by the time of Dunkirk, it would have been removed, and as you already have the wing indicators to show their position, along with the fact that you get a fairly strong nose down change of trim when they are lowered, there was no need for it!

Cheers

Paul
 
Either way since it was phased out so quickly it must not have worked that well.
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I think it worked okay for its intended purpose, ground observers being able to tell friend from foe, the problem was it made them far more visible to the enemy. Essentially they'd chosen the only colour scheme that would contrast with anything!
 
Bradburger said:
That wouldn't be a bad idea!

For the early MK.I, you could have the choice of the 'MG' type of mirror fitted by individual pilots and as seen on N3200, or the choice of no mirror, as per P9374.

For the later MK.I you could have the option of what became the standard mirror fitted to late MK.Is, MK.IIs, and MK.Vs.

As for the flap gauge, the consensus seems to be that it by the time of Dunkirk, it would have been removed, and as you already have the wing indicators to show their position, along with the fact that you get a fairly strong nose down change of trim when they are lowered, there was no need for it!

Cheers

Paul
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The confusing part is that it was installed again in the Mk1A.:engel016:
 
bazzar said:
The confusing part is that it was installed again in the Mk1A.:engel016:
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Bazzar,

Do you have any photographic evidence of this that you came across during your research?

Whilst the hole for the gauge would possibly still be there, I haven't seen any pictures of late MK.Is with the flap indicator installed.

Looking at the Spitfire modification (mod) list, I note the following: -

Mod 215 "Delete flap position indicator" 20-3-40
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Whilst there is always a chance that some early aircraft that were upgraded to the latest mod state retained it for one reason or another, I very much doubt that later MK.Is (built in mid to late 1940), would have had one fitted (re: the mod date), although the hole in the instrument panel would have still been present.

Cheers

Paul
 
The indicator is shown in the manual dated May 1940. I simply just don't know. There are not enough pics available of a genuine Mk1A cockpit. I therefore am going to assume that it was ONLY fitted to the twin wooden blade propped Spitfire 1s and will remove it from the M1A cockpit.

Also, I always thought that the gunbuttons were finished in brass and aluminium. The restored P9374 has it painted red. Is this really authentic?:engel016:
 
Baz, that's beautiful! And I didn't realize you guys had built a Zero. Is there a list somewhere of all of the planes AH has built for various publishers? I know your planes are going to be top-quality.
 
I keep intending to put a thread up here that's just pics of the Zero because so few people seem to realise it's available! I got it in the Pacific Combat Pilot twin-pack when JF were selling it off for some reason. It's not one I fly much, simply because the Far East isn't a theatre I tend to visit much in the sim, but

Going back to the Day/Night conversation, it's one of those "Marmite" things, people seem to have either hated it or loved it. It was very useful for recognition, but by most accounts it was also a nice easy identifier for enemy eyes as well, making RAF aircraft stand out like sore thumbs and thus easy to spot and attack. That was why it went - initially on a local basis, where some units just painted over it, then later by official instruction.

Everyone seems to tell a different story about it, though, as this thread shows very well! :)

Cheers,

Ian P.
 
bazzar said:
The indicator is shown in the manual dated May 1940. I simply just don't know.
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Bazzar,

The copy of the Pilots Notes ('Handling & Flying Notes') that I have is also dated 1940, and is no doubt probably from the same source, which is part of A.P. 1565 A, the maintenance manual for the MK.I, dated June 1940, with sections also dated July & August 1940.

It's possible that picture (the port side) from the 'Flight Controls & Equipment' section was taken from an earlier Spitfire with the flap gauge fitted.

(According to the late Edgar Brooks, there was an amendment for the first edition of the Pilots Notes dated April 1940, which includes an instruction to include all the details of the new undercarriage retraction system, so it's possible that picture of the starboard cockpit was of a machine that was fitted with the automatic lever).

As for the red painted firing button, I firmly believe that to be accurate for that period.

And just to note, both cockpits of P9374 & N3200 have been finished as authentically possible using all the knowledge and references available for a Spitfire of that period and modification state.

Cheers

Paul
 
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Hi Paul,

I don't share your view on the gun button. I am pretty sure, standard issue was brass/alloy. It could be that the original aircraft's button was painted red for some reason but how one would prove that given the time in the wet sand etc. , I don't know.

I believe the picture in the pilot notes is a genuine early Mk1. Probably the wooden airscrew flat top version. I think the notes make mention of the indicator not being fitted to later aircraft. So somewhere between the change in props they took it out.:engel016:
 
Bazzar,

I saw a picture somewhere (probably on the Key historic forum) of a Spitfire spade grip fitted to a MK.I which had come into someone's possession .

You could clearly see the worn red paint on the firing button.

And restored Spitfire I X4650 (built in October 1940) has a very rare and early Spitfire MK.I spade grip (pre 1939 and still with a 'Dunlop Applied Patent' marked on it), and again, it has faded red paint on the brass!

So all the evidence shows during this period, they were indeed painted red.

Going back to the flap indicator, maybe you could make it togglable, so it could be 'fitted' to the VC if desired!

As a side note, both P9374 & N3200 have a flying limitations placard (required by the CAA) fitted behind the hole for the flap gauge on the back of the firewall, so as to not spoil the authenticity of the cockpit!

Cheers

Paul
 
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