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Latest info on the crash

22.6 G's... I would think that the airframe would have torn itself apart under that load... That just seems like a really high G load for the aircraft to stay intact... I would also be somewhat surprised if the trimtab was the only cause...In those pictures, besides the trim tab and missing pilot, nothing seems amiss. There isn't any sheet metal bending as far as i can see, which is what i would suspect would be the first thing to show stress visibly... Anyway, I'm probably wrong, so I'll just wait for the experts to decide what happened.
 
Just a few more points.

1) Instant loss of consciousness with a sudden onset of extremely high G's is a well known event, especially to the USAF, as many F-16 pilots experienced G-LOC when they first entered service and that was with an Anti-G suit at 9G's. After proper training they learned to resist it. Someone experiencing a sudden onset of high G around 20G's without a G-suit is definitely going to black out immediately.

2) The plane probably rolled into the ground due to the force of the unconscious pilot's arm/torso pushing the joystick over or simply because his body kind of went to one side of either the JS and/or the rudder when he blacked out; i.e.-his body moved the controls based on the forces on him after he blacked out.
 
I have spoken with people who flew P-51's and they all said the same thing. The laminar flow wing was horrible for snap stalling. At a high AOA, high speed, and high G, im sure a snap stall could easy invert the aircraft. Also these pilots resist G's almost the entire time they are out there on the "track". If he was already pulling a lot of G's before the incident, and then suddenly got hit with more, then im sure he could of gotten knocked out quickly. I just dont buy the story of the trim tab inverting the aircraft. Too many aircraft only have 1 trim tab and never had a problem keeping it level. If it wasent a problem on something like the Mig-15/17, then it WONT be a problem on the P-51. Its only there to deflect the control surface, not the enture aircraft!

Ultimatly, I dont think the pilot was a "hero" that "avoided" the bleachers. I think we can all agree that he was out like a light before he knew what was going on. It will be interesting to read what the NTSB says about this tragic chain of events, and if any of us were close. The big question is, will age play a contributing factor? It can go either way. Would a younger pilot of been able to recover before the Glock set it? At 22G's I doubt anyone short of Superman would be able to hold onto the stick.
 
I started aerobatic training at the age of 16 in a Stearman, Citabria, and ended up as a co-owner of a Pitts (S2B)...I'm very familiar with the BIG G. I have seen all of the videos and there's NO WAY he was "slumped over the controls.....Physics/ G-forces 101 class.
The pilot was "strapped" in......VERY SNUGGLY......holding him in an upright, seated position. Had he lost consciousness, I think his helmet would still be visible. I'm gonna bet that his seat gave way to the forces and he was " shifted " back into the fuselage behind the cockpit.

Just a thought.........we'll never know for sure.

LD
 
speculation on my part but doesn't it look like the pilot's helmut shoved all the way forward to the instrument panel?
 
luckydog said:
I started aerobatic training at the age of 16 in a Stearman, Citabria, and ended up as a co-owner of a Pitts (S2B)...I'm very familiar with the BIG G. I have seen all of the videos and there's NO WAY he was "slumped over the controls.....Physics/ G-forces 101 class.
The pilot was "strapped" in......VERY SNUGGLY......holding him in an upright, seated position. Had he lost consciousness, I think his helmet would still be visible. I'm gonna bet that his seat gave way to the forces and he was " shifted " back into the fuselage behind the cockpit.

Just a thought.........we'll never know for sure.

LD
Click to expand...
I've heard that theory too and it is possible.
 
If you watch someone blackout in a centrifuge test, even then you will almost always see the person lean completely forward and down after passing out, with their arms staight down. As has been stated here and on other forums, after Bob Hannah blacked out when experiencing 10-11 G's after the trimtab departed on Voodoo, he awoke to find his hands down by his feet, and his head far down in the cockpit, under/at the instrument panel, and he had to 'unstick' himslef from this forward leaning position at which he got caught, before he could resume control again. Jimmy was wearing a bright silver helmet of his, during the race, and I can't imagine that being anything other than the pilot's helmet - nothing else in the cockpit would account for that. As some have stated, who would be considered 'in the know', the give in the shoulder straps, allowing you to lean that far down in the cockpit, is normal. After all, you would have to lean forward in the cockpit, in order to reach various controls near and around the floor in something like a Mustang. You're fastened tightly to the frame of the seat-bottom, but the shoulder straps are connected at the back of the seat to a spring assembly.

Edit: After having gone through all of this detail, just to try and explain away something that already took place and is over with, which won't get anyone here, or elsewhere on the internet, anywhere, I think I'm personally done discussing the matter entirely, as it feels more and more distasteful, the more the minor details are discussed, and even argued. Respect must be witnessed, for the memory of Jimmy Leeward, his family, his friends, and everyone who was directly affected by this terrible, but unfortunate, incident.
 
Brad, there would be nothing like that attached to the instrument panel. Look closely and it looks like a parachute pack behind the bar separating the windscreen and the rear canopy.

IMHO, it is him.

What I don't understand is how 22.6Gs would shove him forward into the instrument panel.
 
GT182 said:
What I don't understand is how 22.6Gs would shove him forward into the instrument panel.
Click to expand...

When you pull G's, the pilot will tend to go in the direction of his center of gravity...ie, if you are leaning forward without the shoulder harness on (or the intertial reel of the harness fails in an excessive G situation), the pilot will pitch forward and down. In the case of a sudden onset of alot of G's that you weren't expecting, it could overcome your ability to remain upright, and having a heavy parachute on your back just makes the weight of the force even worse.

Since pilots are the ones who input the G forces, they are usually ready to overcome it, unless it's a surprise event.
 
Bone said:
When you pull G's, the pilot will tend to go in the direction of his center of gravity...ie, if you are leaning forward without the shoulder harness on (or the intertial reel of the harness fails in an excessive G situation), the pilot will pitch forward and down. In the case of a sudden onset of alot of G's that you weren't expecting, it could overcome your ability to remain upright, and having a heavy parachute on your back just makes the weight of the force even worse.

Since pilots are the ones who input the G forces, they are usually ready to overcome it, unless it's a surprise event.
Click to expand...

This surely was a surprise event. Even so, I'd think he'd be pushed back in the seat from the Gs pulled. Might have broken his neck tho, and once the Gs unloaded it might have let him fall forward into the panel. Just going from my experience pulling Gs, even tho it's limited.
 
As to the lack of a “fireball”, Hollywood has conditioned us to expect one in all airplane crashes, when in fact the majority of them lack such drama. As to G forces, it's hard to tell how it will affect the pilot, if the plane is experiencing abnormal movement after the initial event (loss of trim tab). There's probably way too much “common sense” being applied to all the speculation here in the case of the G forces. The best we can do is look toward similar events in the past, and that's the “Voodoo” mishap.
 
Gibbage said:
I have spoken with people who flew P-51's and they all said the same thing. The laminar flow wing was horrible for snap stalling. At a high AOA, high speed, and high G, im sure a snap stall could easy invert the aircraft. Also these pilots resist G's almost the entire time they are out there on the "track". If he was already pulling a lot of G's before the incident, and then suddenly got hit with more, then im sure he could of gotten knocked out quickly. I just dont buy the story of the trim tab inverting the aircraft. Too many aircraft only have 1 trim tab and never had a problem keeping it level. If it wasent a problem on something like the Mig-15/17, then it WONT be a problem on the P-51. Its only there to deflect the control surface, not the enture aircraft!

Ultimatly, I dont think the pilot was a "hero" that "avoided" the bleachers. I think we can all agree that he was out like a light before he knew what was going on. It will be interesting to read what the NTSB says about this tragic chain of events, and if any of us were close. The big question is, will age play a contributing factor? It can go either way. Would a younger pilot of been able to recover before the Glock set it? At 22G's I doubt anyone short of Superman would be able to hold onto the stick.
Click to expand...

Kevin, the Mig 15/17 are jets which don't have the torque like the Mustang does with its propeller.
 
mrogers said:
Kevin, the Mig 15/17 are jets which don't have the torque like the Mustang does with its propeller.
Click to expand...

So very true Mark.

I've been up in the Collings Foundation's TP-51C, rear seat, and the torq is tremendous. If you don't use the proper trim on take off it will bite ya real good. And that's also the reason for trim tabs in flight. From what I saw, a part of flying a 51 is the need to be ready all the time to use the trim.

I've been up in an L-39 and there is no torq from a jet engine.... Just thrust to make ya fly. :d
 
I believe the pilot would experience decelerating Gs, when going 500mph level, then suddenly pitch up. The plane slows down. Similar to braking hard in a car. The pilot will move forward.
 
Another speculation on my part as to why he inverted so quickly is that the planes are at almost at a ninety degree inside bank passing the grand stands getting ready for pylons 1 & 2. If he experienced mechanical problems, he could have been trying to level out for a normal mayday climb out of the race. The extreme pitch-up at the same time resulted in a blackout while continuing to roll at full power. The crash was just about at the home finish line.
 
There's been enough "armchair experts" already. Time to wait and see what the investigation reveals.
The plan's mechs must not be feeling too good right now. Last thing they, or anyone else involved, need is speculation making the rounds. Even more so for those who lost kin.
 
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