Manfred Jahn's C-47- Engine fire suppression V2-V3 ?

[Jethro7]

Hello Gents,

I do believe this is my first Topic & first post here at SOH, and about time too! hopefully in future, I will not be so distracted.

I have finally found the time to immerse myself in the installation and learning process, using Manfred Jahn's excellent C-47v2. (Reading the manuals and flying of course).
Initially I had the C-47 V2 and had a few training flights and really liked the aircraft, (even with the semi modern cockpit), I finally managed to get her flying at a reasonable airspeed without cooking the engines, luckily there was a "Fire Suppression panel" in the overhead for v2 as I had quite a few engine fires before I learned to finesse the old girl.

I have since Updated to the C-47v3.14, with a few repaints & .001 patch, "Holy Cow" what an amazing cockpit. So venturing out with a new learning curve decided to take her out for a spin, I had forgotten my lessons and all the new stuff in the PDF manual and guess what? I cooked the engines yet again, (forgot to trail the cowl flaps) and implement proper engine management. Immediately I began looking for a safe LZ and ditch procedure, as well as looking around the cockpit for the "Fire Suppression", I couldn't find the switches or a similar Fire panel in the V3 as there was in V2. so flew her into the ground and let her burn. (Reset)

I didn't see anything in the manual or here on the forum about extinguishing "Engine Fires" does anyone know if there was any "Engine Fire Suppression equipment" modelled in the Manfred's C-47v3.14

Cheers Jethro

 

[BendyFlyer]

V2 was a modernised C-47 which is why it had fire suppression. The later versions do not have it because the original aircraft of the time did not have it either.

If you had an engine fire, you shutdown the engine, turned off the fuel and electrics, closed the cowl flaps and feathered it at the speed at which your read this sentence. If it went out good, if not you were in a world of hurt and looking for somewhere to put it down, you then had about 4 minutes to achieve this before the wing failed due to the metal softening from fire or you might get lucky and the engine would fall off first. You could sometimes side-slip the aircraft and that could put out a fire out by blanketing the area or putting it into a dead zone as far as airflow was concerned it may not but it helped supress it, sideslipping an aeroplane is also a very good way of losing height very quickly and used to be taught to all trainee pilots to lose height safely and quickly on final but some aircraft cannot be sideslipped because of structural reasons but not the C-47. How do you side-slip, easy, simultaneously apply full aileron one way, full opposite rudder the other way depending on which way you want to point the nose, hold those control inputs until you reach the desired height and then centre the rudder and ailerons simultaneously. Come to think of it, I have not tried this in FSX to see if it will do it, off to find out!

 

[Jethro7]

Thought as much - Cheers Bendy

V2 was a modernised C-47 which is why it had fire suppression. The later versions do not have it because the original aircraft of the time did not have it either.

If you had an engine fire, you shutdown the engine, turned off the fuel and electrics, closed the cowl flaps and feathered it at the speed at which your read this sentence. If it went out good, if not you were in a world of hurt and looking for somewhere to put it down, you then had about 4 minutes to achieve this before the wing failed due to the metal softening from fire or you might get lucky and the engine would fall off first. You could sometimes side-slip the aircraft and that could put out a fire out by blanketing the area or putting it into a dead zone as far as airflow was concerned it may not but it helped supress it, sideslipping an aeroplane is also a very good way of losing height very quickly and used to be taught to all trainee pilots to lose height safely and quickly on final but some aircraft cannot be sideslipped because of structural reasons but not the C-47. How do you side-slip, easy, simultaneously apply full aileron one way, full opposite rudder the other way depending on which way you want to point the nose, hold those control inputs until you reach the desired height and then centre the rudder and ailerons simultaneously. Come to think of it, I have not tried this in FSX to see if it will do it, off to find out!

Many thanks for your reply BendyFlyer,

It did cross my mind that V2 was equipped with retrofitted Fire suppression to go with the modern panel type. Though it is good to receive confirmation between V2 and V3 equipment. I guess for authenticity sake, the V3 C-47 would not have it modelled. Manfred and the development team contributors & beta testers are to be commended on making V3 closer to the real deal. She sure is a great old lady once you get her configured right. I'm finding the Monitor mode works well while learning how everything works, checklists audible and crosschecked blue ticked as completed, its good to see the numbers in grey or green, and yellow then red if there's a engine problem brewing. She is so smooth to fly and the sound is pure excellence.
(I also use A2A AccuFeel in FSX which adds something to the overall aircraft feel and sound, both in the air and on the ground).

Thanks also for the tip on sideslipping, I will have to give that a try.

That is absolutely the answer I was looking for, as my R/W knowledge of these old girls is pretty sparse (only ever seen pictures and read about).
I tried a few of those emergency procedures you've mentioned above with the V3.14 beta, like fuel/OFF, electrics/OFF, feather prop, and shut cowl flaps to deny airflow. Its quite a job to get it done in the required timeframe with only one engine on fire (warning bell dingling all the time), then just when you think you're through the worst, and have corrected the low wing on the damaged side and coping with reduced airspeed, wondering where the nearest airfield, on-route alternate or open field might be! (time to declare emergency - begin procedures). Then another bell warning, the other side has overstressed, now we're into a full blown emergency, no choice now but to put her down anywhere that looks good.
Of coarse I do switch on the no smoking sign, that's just a bit of fun for the punters in the cheap seats if my emergency landing goes wrong. I can pretend I'm Jimmy Stewart in "Flight of the Phoenix"

 

[PhantomTweak]

I've read about pilots side-slipping to help put out fires like you described, but in B-17's during WWII. Sometimes it worked, sometimes not, just like you described. Nice to get independent confirmation of a procedure like that.
Back in the mid-70's, when I was learning to fly gliders, it was common procedure to keep your pattern altitudes relatively high on downwind and base, in case a go-around was needed. Can't just add power in a glider! But if you had to, on final, we were taught to side-slip to loose altitude. I don't know about a C-47, but in a small glider, we would just push the rudder while only using enough aileron to keep it level. After some practice, I got to where I could control my rate of descent pretty closely while side-slipping.

Interesting little tid-bit. Brought back some fun memories
Pat☺

 

[BendyFlyer]

Jethro, glad to help. Correct about it is quite a job but in the RW you had a co-pilot who would take care of some of the stuff as you did the primary stuff of shutting down the engine and controlling the aeroplane and you needed that extra set of eyes to have a look out the window and see what was going on. In the RW you practised those drills until they were second nature. A very successful RAF bomber pilot from WW2 called Leonard Cheshire (Bomber Command Pathfinder and the RAFs most decorated pilot VC plus plus) wrote in his memoirs that he would sit in a new type and any type of aeroplane he flew practising those emergency drills and more importantly getting to know where everything in the cockpit was until he could literally reach and touch stuff with his eyes closed, his reasoning with which I whole heartedly agree was that on a dark night with a cockpit full of smoke it was not the place or the time to now try and find stuff.

Glad your enjoying the C-47 this is a great rendition of a very good aeroplane and I probably do a run in it about twice a week, just for fun. It has only one area which will cause you grief, on the ground and or landing, they had a very stiff undercarriage and if you were too fast and a little high would bounce badly and if you did not get it under control bad things happened shortly thereafter (yes I have experienced this in the sim), but it is a taildragger and they are not an easy plane to operate on the ground or taking off and landing. In the air, wonderful.

Personally I had the good luck to never have and engine fire in an aeroplane, came close when one failed one night but there was no indication it was on fire but when examined on the ground later it had a bad fire in the nacelle area and it was a miracle it had not spread, melted all the air inlet, filters etc, not a pretty sight and very sobering to see. Have had an electrical fire in flight and it was a very tense return back over the ocean for a long ways with the smell of acrid smoke in your nostrils, no electrics any more (all shut down even radios) and only primary pressure instruments still functioning. That was another lucky escape, a short off the generator set fire to the wiring loom back through the wing but stopped at the inverters, then went out just as well lot of fuel in the wings of big twin.

PhantomTweak, no problems sideslipping the C-47 for real it was a big pussy cat but like all aeroplanes if there was an issue it would be mentioned in the flight manual the most common reason or restriction was due to fuel being sloshed about from one side of the tank to the other causing inadvertent fuel starvation, generally on those problems the manual would say to restrict sideslips to about 30 secs max. Personally I love doing sideslipping it was great fun and once you mastered it you had another skill to get you out of a bad approach but the golden rule still is if the approach is bad so will be the landing so make a decision early and go around, simple no point persevering with a crap approach when a go around will take a few minutes and you can sort it out or the conditions that are causing you a problem.

Cheers

 

[Jethro7]

Thankyou Pat (PhantomTweak) & BendyFlyer,

For your generous RealWorld comments and taking the time to expand a little on your personal experience, its good to read the experiences from guys who actually fly, or who have flown these birds.

EDIT: Interesting virtual Co-pilot - in MJ's C-47v3, he's there for routine checklists, but when the engines catch fire he has abandoned his post. It would be fantastic if he could help out a little when things are heading south/downhill. (Maybe in a future update).

 

[PhantomTweak]

EDIT: Interesting virtual Co-pilot - in MJ's C-47v3, he's there for routine checklists, but when the engines catch fire he has abandoned his post. It would be fantastic if he could help out a little when things are heading south/downhill. (Maybe in a future update).

You want to find your co-pilot after the engines catch fire? Just look behind and below your plane. Maybe out the main passenger door. I'll wager you'll see his parachute. Let's HOPE you see a parachute, anyway...

Have fun!
Otherwise, what's the point?
Pat☺

 

[Jethro7]

Touché Pat, very funny.... and to think his captains wings were in my top pocket, the guests were all waiting for us to land, a promotion party was planned. O'h well parachuting at low altitude might work but not for his career.

 

[PhantomTweak]

O'h well parachuting at low altitude might work but not for his career.

I hope, for his sake, you weren't too awful low. I seem to recall the old movies..."Jump out, count to 10, pull the rip-cord".
If you were low enough and he counted to 10, his career would be the only thing going flat suddenly.



Glad you're having fun! That's the whole point, after all...
Pat☺