Spawns. Unravelling their making and use.

mongoose

mongoose

SOH-CM-2025
Having followed without total understanding (very little actually! :pop4: ) Diawilletti and Mixxer's discussion on spawns in the taxiing aircraft thread, I feel it would be really useful to start a sticky on Spawns; the use and making of which are still partly a mystery to me. I might dig up some notes from others on this issue. like Loic's who was good on them. A pity Wulfmann isn't active any more as he was also a prolific spawn maker.
Anyone like to start the ball rolling before me?
 
Spawn categories

Well James its a big subject. My bible is the spawn and mission scripting SDK by Microsoft. I have a dog-eared hard copy of the SDK permanently on my gaming desk. It is coffee and food-stained.

Anyone really interested in learning about spawns needs to at least have a soft copy of the SDK.

On spawns, the SDK is divided into two parts, one for the spawn table file (the one ending in .spawns eg the air.spawns file), and the other for spawn xml files. Each spawn.xml file belongs to a spawn table file.

In the Spawns folder of your cfs3 install there are (my arbitrary division) six different groups of spawn table files with associated xml files:

1. default air spawns. Stock or modified set of air spawns files provide for random spawning of aircraft in campaigns, or in missions where random spawns are enabled. There are no air spawns in QC mode.
2. default ground spawns. Trains, vehicles of all sorts outside of a facility's boundary are generated by the ground.spawns file and associated xml files. This file includes the random ship spawns which appear during missions. Random ground spawns DO appear in QC mode, including ships.
3. default frontline spawns. The frontline.spawns file and associated xml files give life to the frontline, providing a swag of frontline facilities banging away at each other. These do not appear in QC mode. Not sure about missions where random spawns are enabled?
4. Default campaign spawns generating the campaign mission objectives. Default campaign has 12 different mission types, so there are approximately twelve (actually a bit more complex) spawn sets which can be accessed to generate the target for a campaign mission. This is the spawn set I would dearly love to hack so as to add different specific targets for campaign missions.
5. Spawns sets written for specific missions by the mission builder. A mission builder will often use a mix of default and bespoke spawn sets.
6. Spawns called for in a facility file - eg rail spawns are written into stock rail-yard facilities.

Every one of those six categories can be modified. ETO provides the best example of a comprehensively modified set of spawn files.

The modified stock install I have uploaded has modifications to all of these spawn categories. The coastal shipping generator utilises the 6th category to have a facility file generate ships in the coastal area.

Looking forward to hearing from experienced spawn makers like Loic, and maybe even Mrjmaint if he is about?
 
There is a whole section on spawns in the CFS 3 Mission Builder.pdf which are a good basis. Is this what your are referring to, or CFS3 Mission File Format Documentation.doc?

I actually do make spawns but in a sort of monkey see monkey do way by bastardizing other spawns. More important is that there is a better understanding of the possibilities which all mission makers could take advantage of. Now I don't do QC or campaigns which is what I take much of what you and Mixxer were referring to so that would be interesting to know more about; for others, if not myself. I have several notes on discussion with people like Loic which should be put in either the Knowledge Base or a separate sticky. maybe at some stage we could incorporate that stuff plus relevant stuff from this thread like your comments into a sticky?
 
I sorry to say that over time a lot of the things I knew are long gone, Jason my son was the one who really had a good handle on them back when we were doing mission sets back when cfs3 was new. My son was fortunate to exchange emails with somebody (it may have been Wulfmann from memory) back in the day and he was a great help to us.

Sometimes when I read things now it brings back info as was the case in the other thread, I do have a set of much modded stock files that we created back then which I have installed into my all in one mod setup.


I have somethings which I do remember so I will list them below


1. Its very important that if you want reality with regards models and textures when using spawned formations, the aircraft xdp files must have the correct corresponding EnteredService="xx/xx/xxxx" LeftService="xx/xx/xxxx" dates (mm/dd/yyyy), as an example you only want allied aircraft textured with invasion stripes entering service no earlier than the 4 June 44 and leaving service starting around 1 Aug 44 with all gone by end of Dec 44

2. The other thing that's important is if you are spawning aircraft based on aircraft type (which is better for replay ability) IE fighter_bomber, tactical_bomber or level_bomber types (rather than spawning a particular aircraft) then for the spawned aircraft to react correctly with regard to the mission type you set in the spawn xml file you need to make sure all the aircraft you have include loadouts that have the parameter missiontypes="xxxxxxxxxxx" associated with them.

So for a fighter_bomber you must have at least 1 loadout which have these mission types listed "Recon,Escort,CAP,Intercept,Sweep,Nothing,Bomber_Intercept,Strike,CAS,Search_Destroy,Anti_Ship"
With regard to both the bomber types you must have Nothing,Strike,CAS,Search_Destroy,Anti_Ship

You can have multiple mission types to a single loadout using the statement MissionType="Strike,Anti_Ship" (NOTE IMPORTANT no spaces before/after the comma) or you can spread them out with loadouts that match the mission, for example torpedo loadouts would have a mission type "Anti_Ship"

In the cases when you have a fighter_bomber that has only a "clean" loadout you can list them all under that one loadout, keeping in mind if your spawn file has a route type "bombing" parameter then they wont do anything, bombers will always attack with the bombing parameter as they should always have a bomb load in the loadouts that matches.
The game knows what the different weapon types are so a bombing command for an aircraft that has no bomb loadout means they wont respond if they are carrying rockets only.

However if you know you are spawning fighter_bombers in a ground attack scenario you can use the route type="allweapons" parameter so they will strafe,rocket and bomb depending on your loadouts that match the mission type in the spawn xml file.
If the aircraft only has a "clean" loadout with the parameter MissionType="Recon,Escort,CAP,Intercept,Sweep,Nothing,Bomber_Intercept,Strike,CAS,Search_Destroy,Anti_Ship" then it will still strafe the target when the route type="allweapons" parameter is used

Even if you want to spawn a particular aircraft rather than the wildcard types listed above they must still have the correct loadout format with the mission types defined


Phew Im a one finger "typa" so hopefully somebody finds the time to read all of this cause it took about an hour for me to get it all out.:banghead:
 
Mixxer said:
I sorry to say that over time a lot of the things I knew are long gone, Jason my son was the one who really had a good handle on them back when we were doing mission sets back when cfs3 was new. My son was fortunate to exchange emails with somebody (it may have been Wulfmann from memory) back in the day and he was a great help to us.

Sometimes when I read things now it brings back info as was the case in the other thread, I do have a set of much modded stock files that we created back then which I have installed into my all in one mod setup.


I have somethings which I do remember so I will list them below


1. Its very important that if you want reality with regards models and textures when using spawned formations, the aircraft xdp files must have the correct corresponding EnteredService="xx/xx/xxxx" LeftService="xx/xx/xxxx" dates (mm/dd/yyyy), as an example you only want allied aircraft textured with invasion stripes entering service no earlier than the 4 June 44 and leaving service starting around 1 Aug 44 with all gone by end of Dec 44

2. The other thing that's important is if you are spawning aircraft based on aircraft type (which is better for replay ability) IE fighter_bomber, tactical_bomber or level_bomber types (rather than spawning a particular aircraft) then for the spawned aircraft to react correctly with regard to the mission type you set in the spawn xml file you need to make sure all the aircraft you have include loadouts that have the parameter missiontypes="xxxxxxxxxxx" associated with them.

So for a fighter_bomber you must have at least 1 loadout which have these mission types listed "Recon,Escort,CAP,Intercept,Sweep,Nothing,Bomber_Intercept,Strike,CAS,Search_Destroy,Anti_Ship"
With regard to both the bomber types you must have Nothing,Strike,CAS,Search_Destroy,Anti_Ship

You can have multiple mission types to a single loadout using the statement MissionType="Strike,Anti_Ship" (NOTE IMPORTANT no spaces before/after the comma) or you can spread them out with loadouts that match the mission, for example torpedo loadouts would have a mission type "Anti_Ship"

In the cases when you have a fighter_bomber that has only a "clean" loadout you can list them all under that one loadout, keeping in mind if your spawn file has a route type "bombing" parameter then they wont do anything, bombers will always attack with the bombing parameter as they should always have a bomb load in the loadouts that matches.
The game knows what the different weapon types are so a bombing command for an aircraft that has no bomb loadout means they wont respond if they are carrying rockets only.

However if you know you are spawning fighter_bombers in a ground attack scenario you can use the route type="allweapons" parameter so they will strafe,rocket and bomb depending on your loadouts that match the mission type in the spawn xml file.
If the aircraft only has a "clean" loadout with the parameter MissionType="Recon,Escort,CAP,Intercept,Sweep,Nothing,Bomber_Intercept,Strike,CAS,Search_Destroy,Anti_Ship" then it will still strafe the target when the route type="allweapons" parameter is used

Even if you want to spawn a particular aircraft rather than the wildcard types listed above they must still have the correct loadout format with the mission types defined


Phew Im a one finger "typa" so hopefully somebody finds the time to read all of this cause it took about an hour for me to get it all out.:banghead:
Click to expand...

I should add that all the above applies to the stock cfs3 game, im not really up with the different expansions and whether they have added mission types in addition to the stock ones
 
I found a document which people may find interesting, contains a lot of explanations for the various parameters and I think it is the soft version of the book that Daiwilletti was referring too
 

Attachments

  • CFS3 Mission File Format Documentation.pdf
    324.4 KB · Views: 23
Yes. And a variation or simplification of that is found here under the spawn section

attachment.php
 

Attachments

  • CFS 3 Mission Builder.pdf
    673.4 KB · Views: 13
Some discussion between myself and Loic a while back.

QUOTE
"My main issues are
- making the spawns appear 100% of the time
-getting them at the wanted hi altitude

!.
To make the spawns appear 100% of the time it's in the *.spawns file setup:

InRangeProbability="100" OutOfRangeProbability="100" where 100 is 100%. The range is defined by HighAgl & LowAgl values.

HighAgl="xxx" LowAgl="xxx" this is the player min/max altitude range which the spawn will work. So if the player is higher or lower then, it won't spawn. I've tested various setup for carpetbagger missions to force the player to fly at low altitude but it didn't worked really well. I suppose that if you dont put these in the spawn fils then it will work at any altitude but I'm not 100% sure.

So if you don't use these parameters and setup probabilities at 100% then, it is supposed to work everytime.

Priority="100000" I've always put a high value for this one when I wish a 100% target but I'm not srue about consequences on other spawns scripts around.

2. Regarding the altitude it's setup in the XML script but here, I only know how does it work for aircrafts. In this case, you setup directy in Mission Builder or manually in, the XML script, parameter Alt="xxx" (in meters)."
END
 
MAW_Spawning_Info.htm

MAW provides a useful document about spawning, in the Desert Rats folder. The title of the document is the title of this post.

The most interesting section is here, but read the whole thing when you have time.

[h=1]Spawning Information[/h][h=3]
Background[/h][FONT=&quot]
Random spawning seems to have always presented challenges in CFS3 which has led to various work arounds since the game's release. This document will help explain some of the challenges the Desert Rats have faced as well as how we've tackled the issue for the Mediterranean Air War.[/FONT]​
​
[FONT=&quot]
As it turns out there is really two types of random spawning that come into play in CFS3. Further, the solution for one does not work for the other.[/FONT]​
​
[FONT=&quot]
The first type of random spawning is the one that most people think of and are referring to in the various threads seen in the forums about the issues surrounding spawning. That is the "air" spawns ~ the randomly generated "friendly" and "enemy" flights of aircraft you see as you try to complete your mission. In fact this type of spawning really extends to other types of randomly generated "formations" ~ that is units that move on the ground or at sea as well as the units that move through the air. In this discussion the machines (i.e. aircraft, vehicles & ships) that get spawned this way will be referred to as "formation" spawns. Thanks to Charlie Simpson's discovery a few years ago, an important rule to remember when discussing CFS3's stock formation spawning routines is they will only generate spawns for one Allied nationality and one Axis nationality regardless of how many nationalities are defined. By default, these are the USA and Germany respectively in CFS3. Where as, MAW has been setup so these are Britain and Germany when the stock spawning routines are used: i.e. Legacy Mode.[/FONT]​
​
[FONT=&quot]
The second type of random spawning is not immediately obvious. These will be referred to as "facility" spawns. Facility spawns are the ones most people think of as giving life to the theater by populating the various facilities throughout the map. For example, at an airbase, facility spawns are responsible for generating all the parked aircraft, the A/A guns, the cars and trucks that move around the service roads and so on.[/FONT]​
​
[FONT=&quot]
There's are a couple of important rules to keep in mind about facilities which affect their spawns. The primary rule is facilities are assigned a random nationality from the appropriate Alliance based on the player's flight, the flight's Alliance and the position of the front line. Any facility on the same side of the front line as the player's flight is considered "friendly" and the facilities on the other side of the line are considered "enemy". If the player's flight is from one of the Axis nationalities then the Allied nationalities will be the "enemy" and vice versa.[/FONT]​
​
[FONT=&quot]
The facility spawning secondary rule is based on the configuration of the global layer (the files that define where the facilities are placed in the map). A default nationality can be assigned to a facility in the global layer. If the player's flight is from the same alliance as the defined default nationality and the facility is on the same side of the line as the flight's originating point then the default nationality will override the game's behavior of randomly assigning a nationality to the facility. However, if the facility is on the other side of the line, or the player's flight is from the other alliance, then the primary rule is used: i.e. it is assigned a random nationlity despite the definition in the global layer.[/FONT]​
​
[FONT=&quot]
Finally, another random spawning behavior is when the player is in close proximity to certain types of facilities. However, spawning generated this way actually uses the formation spawns. The difference is a facility is the trigger rather then an event in a mission or a campaign.[/FONT]​
​
 
So still looking at this as I am interested in landing spawns in particular. I have a note from discussions with "Bob"; which one I don't know?

QUOTE:
Landing spawns have been another story. Just haven't been able to get them to work right.
I don't know where I got them from, but that is the name of the spawns file.
For landing spawns, if you modify the distance at which AI make their landing approach to the runway (in the obejcts xml file eg. runway 1400), then they will approach the runway more quickly. Stock runways have the Ai going way out to 8000m or something.
However if you modify the object xml for the runway don't reduce it below 5000 - I've seen the AI get way too close and tangled up if they all turn at 4500 and make a dash for the runway - its very funny but not so good for their survival

James and Ronny

I have found a work around for the landing spawns or a trick. I used a two waypoint spawn. The first waypoint uses absolute coordinates and is at a location in direct line with the airport a few clicks out. The ai is at 500ft and normal airspeed. The 2nd absolute waypoint is the landing waypoint with the airfield coordinates from the global layer.

I then place the mission target file about 14 NM miles out from the airfield. The mission target file then triggers the spawn when you are still 14 miles out from the airfield so that the ai can do their thing and circle and get set up for a in line landing. This way you can intercept the ai as they begin their approach to the airfield.

Let me know if you want the spawns and mission file for Grimbergen so you can see if it is applicable to what you want to do.

cheers
bob

END

Now the objects xml file figure referred to, is it the "turn" figure as in <Runway Start="0 0 -500" Stop="0 0 500" Width="50" Turn="10000" SurfaceType="grass"/>? In any case what does the 10000(?metres?) refer to if not where AI's make their approach.

I have in fact only found 3 landing spawns (a lot more take off) totally
P-47_Landing_Grimbergen ( ? Bob's?)
Blenheim_landing_Waddington ( ? Bob's?)
LBS_air_RAF_bmb_heavy_Landing_8 from Loic

In the mission builder, looking at the spawn routes, it does say turn (absolute) and land at base (absolute) which I assume refers to the absolute coordinates mentioned above but that expression is not mentioned in the spawn xml file

<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?>
<AirFormation Country="#enemy" FormType="trail" OffsetScaleFactor="10" Directive="nothing">
<Unit Type="blenheim_mkiv_om-j" Repeat="3"/>
<Route>
<Waypoint PositionType="latlon" Lat="N53*17'26.0965"" Lon="W0*28'32.8115"" Speed="46.82" Type="turn" Alt="152.40"/>
<Waypoint PositionType="latlon" Lat="N53*10'23.1726"" Lon="W0*31'18.5053"" Type="landing"/>
</Route>
</AirFormation>

So how to get that expression in the spawn builder?

Loic's method is different. I haven't checked how well that works yet.
 
My tuppence on the distance in the runway object file, is that 4500 is WAY too small. Anything under 8000 I find results in unseemly jostling and high casualty rates. (although good luck landing a flight of Spitfires from any distance, AI cannot seem to handle that narrow wheelbase).
 
One thing that I found years back to increase the probability that ai aircraft would land was to spread the formation even more, from memory it was "3" that we used to minimize the jostling for position and the stacking the AI goes through on approach plus the use of trail formation parameter
Another thing was the ground levels below the approach flightpath, if the airfield runway level is below the surrounding area the proximity of the obstructions eg trees and the ground level dropping away can cause issues
 
Don't Use Lock Altitude = Yes

tied into the runway approach problems that Mixxer mentions, is that it is good if the airbase is set to LockAlt="n" in the global layer.csv. In that way it seems to sit in the landscape better. Otherwise AI aircraft often seem to be trying to land "underneath" the apparent level of the runway.
 
As far as I can tell, all my installs' airbases are LockAlt="n". Meanwhile I am experimenting with landing spawns by taking the Blenheim_landing_Waddington one and replacing data in that. I have to make a simple mission to get 2 sets of coordinates and then use those in the spawn xml; along with aircraft changes etc. I'll report back later!:wiggle:
 
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