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The Staff of SOH
The Ongoing Mystery Aircraft Thread Part Deux.
- Thread starter Ferry_vO
- Start date
srgalahad
Charter Member 2022
OK.. I'm back ( albeit infrequently with any knowledge).
Moses, lefty, I'll try to help out after I land in Mexico in 49 days -Mazatlan, not 'Pulco tho' - IF I can find the library and IF my Spanish is up to it and IF they have any aviation or historical texts AND IF I don't find the Pacifico brewery first! Regardless, I'll think of you in the cold
Rob
Moses, lefty, I'll try to help out after I land in Mexico in 49 days -Mazatlan, not 'Pulco tho' - IF I can find the library and IF my Spanish is up to it and IF they have any aviation or historical texts AND IF I don't find the Pacifico brewery first! Regardless, I'll think of you in the cold
Rob
H
Hurricane
Guest
So it won't be French then? :costumes:
I am not sure of the designation: it is a Nieuport Delage, referred to as "sesquiplan de chasse" derived from the sesquiplan racer. First flown in 1921.
There has been another NiD sesquiplan, the C12. It is not the current mystery.
Seems the people at Nieuport were having troubles finding names
Oh, before I forget it: interesting plane, that Darmstadt. I knew I had seen it somewhere, but couldn't remember where (I swear it's true)
There has been another NiD sesquiplan, the C12. It is not the current mystery.
Seems the people at Nieuport were having troubles finding names
Oh, before I forget it: interesting plane, that Darmstadt. I knew I had seen it somewhere, but couldn't remember where (I swear it's true)
lefty
SOH-CM-2023
Well, &Co gets a watered-down glass of marc here for a pretty half-baked answer.
It is French, James, (there's always a good-looking exception, like Juliette Binoche).
And it is a Nieuport (not Nieuport-Delage) It is a Nieuport 31, which according to my sources flew in 1918/19.
It is French, James, (there's always a good-looking exception, like Juliette Binoche).
And it is a Nieuport (not Nieuport-Delage) It is a Nieuport 31, which according to my sources flew in 1918/19.
Far from me the intention to discuss your comment, Lefty, but I don't know which is which anymore.
Here is a Nieuport given as Nieuport 31 :
Some sources also give it as Nieuport Delage NiD 42S
Your mystery is here, under another angle. The source says it is derived from Georges Kirsch's Nieuport Delage Sesquiplan which won the 1921 Deutsch Cup. So whose sources are (the most) reliable - if any ?
Here is a Nieuport given as Nieuport 31 :
Some sources also give it as Nieuport Delage NiD 42S
Your mystery is here, under another angle. The source says it is derived from Georges Kirsch's Nieuport Delage Sesquiplan which won the 1921 Deutsch Cup. So whose sources are (the most) reliable - if any ?
lefty
SOH-CM-2023
Au contraire, mon ami, we have some very lively debates and differences of opinion here, which is partly what this forum is all about ! Pooling our resources is very useful indeed, and we find lots of anomalies.
I know the site you have used - my info came from Davilla & Soltan's very substantial tome 'French Aircraft of the First World War.' (There is even a 3-view)
Aviafrance has no pic, but mentions the 31 as having the Rhone engine, whereas the later Sesquiplans had inline jobs, and the pics are similar to your one.
However, maybe some of our other regulars can give us some input on this one.
I know the site you have used - my info came from Davilla & Soltan's very substantial tome 'French Aircraft of the First World War.' (There is even a 3-view)
Aviafrance has no pic, but mentions the 31 as having the Rhone engine, whereas the later Sesquiplans had inline jobs, and the pics are similar to your one.
However, maybe some of our other regulars can give us some input on this one.
Thanks indeed for your answer re. the Nieuport.
I didn't check Aviafrance for this one (the "31" pic I provided is given as such by Wikipedia - which I moderately trust), but I assume, until further notice and unless opposite evidence, that Davilla & Soltan are more reliable than Gérard Hartmann (that's where the "sesquiplan de chasse" comes from, and the one who gives the "31" as a NiD 42S... Aw bloimey :d)
I didn't check Aviafrance for this one (the "31" pic I provided is given as such by Wikipedia - which I moderately trust), but I assume, until further notice and unless opposite evidence, that Davilla & Soltan are more reliable than Gérard Hartmann (that's where the "sesquiplan de chasse" comes from, and the one who gives the "31" as a NiD 42S... Aw bloimey :d)
H
Hurricane
Guest
I find its great for building up some resources, I'm slowly building up a collection of books which covers the more obscure stuff (I've got all the mainstream stuff fairly well covered now) but without this forum I'd never have heard of most of these and would never have any reference material on them.
This latest one looks like a Piper Navajo's offspring!
lefty
SOH-CM-2023
You're a generous man, Kevin. Every time the phrase 'interesting history' is used for an aircraft of this vintage, it shouts 'Spanish Civil War' to me ! That conflict ended up as a sort of sump for the most bizarre collection of aircraft from all over the world.
This one was no exception. the Breese-Dallas X Racer.
Funnily enough, my pic shows different windows, so it must have been tinkered with at some stage.
This one was no exception. the Breese-Dallas X Racer.
Funnily enough, my pic shows different windows, so it must have been tinkered with at some stage.
That was quick! 
From Aerofiles:
Dallas X 1933 = 6pClwM rg; 450hp P&W Wasp SC-1. W A Mankey. POP: 1 [X12899] c/n 1, born as Michigan Model 1 (qv) at the same address as Breese & Dallas. Vance Breese purchased it from Lambert Aircraft 4/5/35 and flew it to Los Angeles, repowered it, and NR-licensed it for "exhibition and motion picture camera work." Assumably this is when its name changed to Breese & Dallas X. Soon after it was modified with an 800hp P&W Twin Wasp SR-B and new fuel tanks (185- and 105-gallons in the fuselage, 40- and 15-gallons in each wing), then licensed 4/24/36 "for long-distance cross-country flights" and sold to Jackie Cochran 10/3/36 for the 1937 Bendix Race. However, Paul Mantz (United Air Services, Burbank CA) acquired it on 1/6/37 and flew it to Mexico 1/10/37 to sell to Col Roberto Fierro of the Mexican AAF (price: $25,000). Scheduled for shipment to Spain for use in their Civil War, it crashed in early 1937 flying from Mexico City to Vera Cruz (p: Cloyd Clevenger). Its CAA license expired 4/12/37.
Knew I should have pulled something from the Tibet folder.
Over to Lefty-
From Aerofiles:
Dallas X 1933 = 6pClwM rg; 450hp P&W Wasp SC-1. W A Mankey. POP: 1 [X12899] c/n 1, born as Michigan Model 1 (qv) at the same address as Breese & Dallas. Vance Breese purchased it from Lambert Aircraft 4/5/35 and flew it to Los Angeles, repowered it, and NR-licensed it for "exhibition and motion picture camera work." Assumably this is when its name changed to Breese & Dallas X. Soon after it was modified with an 800hp P&W Twin Wasp SR-B and new fuel tanks (185- and 105-gallons in the fuselage, 40- and 15-gallons in each wing), then licensed 4/24/36 "for long-distance cross-country flights" and sold to Jackie Cochran 10/3/36 for the 1937 Bendix Race. However, Paul Mantz (United Air Services, Burbank CA) acquired it on 1/6/37 and flew it to Mexico 1/10/37 to sell to Col Roberto Fierro of the Mexican AAF (price: $25,000). Scheduled for shipment to Spain for use in their Civil War, it crashed in early 1937 flying from Mexico City to Vera Cruz (p: Cloyd Clevenger). Its CAA license expired 4/12/37.
Knew I should have pulled something from the Tibet folder.
Over to Lefty-