PBR Texturing: Introduction to 3D Workflow in Photoshop

[Mach3DS]

Oh I finally get what you're saying Gordon! Lol...a little slow today! Yes, in order to paint in Quixel you'd need the model to be pre export. The solution that DCS had come up with so far it's to have a proprietary model file extension...and a model viewer. Kind of like MCX. Allowed you to see the model and paint without loading the sim. However this doesn't solve the issue if painting directly in Quixel with the advantages of using the application for what it was designed! Your idea of login is non-invasive and would work well for both parties.

 

[hairyspin]

Thank you Gordon, much appreciated! (still watching your 101)

 

[kalong]

Working in DCS for over a year now, the paint kits that are provided are basically identical to those found in P3D. The only difference is in the the material file (which THEY DO NOT Provide a kit for -- I've made my own from the single flattened RGB file(s) that ship with the products). basically, the way it works in DCS, is that The Color *AND* brightness of the Albedo(Diffuse) map contribute to the material itself. The RGB Material file with either a *.SPEC or *.RoughMet provide the lighting controls; such that you could create a panel that looked like leather on the aircraft skin, OR you could make the same panel look like aluminum. The end result is dependent on how you setup both the Albedo AND the SPEC file with respect to color and brightness and the associated highlight/shadow, Glossiness/metalness, and reflection channels of the RGB channels. This allows the surface to look like shiny aluminum or matted paint or Glossy Paint. The Kits are layered PSD files as you would normally work in. My guess is that PBR could be implemented in some different ways. Ultimately, The textures themselves have the power to control the material per pixel. At least from my experience.

I really AMAZE with DCS work. and I still waiting and "hope" P3D can use and maximize this PBR stuff.
my internal texture of MV-22B Osprey v2.0 was create using Quixel.
I ever try substance painter, but learning curve is too steep for me. then
somebody told me in fsdeveloper.com (sorry I forgot who is he) that there a equal painting software, it was Quixel, and I made a try for it. it lot easier for me as I starter as editing image from Photoshop.
both painting software has plus and minus each other. it depend on your own skill that suit with your own style, the result is similar.
in my old system (laptop) I got around 5 Gb of ram used by Quixel and similar when used Substance painter. in substance painter, it feel more lighter when work with it.

in Sim I only used texture: albedo (blend with AO), norm (for bump), specular (blend with AO). glosiness aren't use just yet.

if someone can give a list of work flow how to maximize PBR in present FSX/P3D I would be very appreciate and very happy to try it.
I could make a try and error for it, but I don't have much time to spend at the moment. I stay watching this thread for new experience with PBR

 

[gman5250]

BTW..

The more I learn about this airplane, the more fascinating the story becomes. The designer was way ahead of his time and only overshadowed by the war. It's especially interesting to observe many of the innovations he included in his design/fabrication that made their way into wartime and post war aircraft. It was actually quite a hotrod, and the proposed pressurized variant would have been "all that".

If it is OK with everyone, I'll continue to use it as the subject matter for upcoming tutorials.

 

[pilto von pilto]

The paintkit is one of the issues I can see. Whilst the login is a nice idea it would be cost prohibitive in time , management and fiscallly. I think PBR texture based repaints will require more time than it takes now. Tweaking each aspect of the texture will become a requirement rather than an option. Which will in turn , turn off the " I just want to open PSP and slide in a different serial ".

Or ( and flame retardent suit is well and truly on ! )

Perhaps developers start charging for paintkits? Knockdown paintkit version of the model for use in quixel/mari/substance but not much else + raw layered PBR based files.

A bit like special editions of videogames right now. Not every purchaser requires a paintkit. For the ones that want it they buy the special edition with extras and the others that dont want/require paintkit can buy the standard edition. This would also keep the prices down on the standard editions. I'm not sure it will happen but if it was priced keenly enough, who knows.

Or
Charge for the "Super Paintkit deluxe " that has the knockdown model+ layered files and provide the standard current generation paintkit freely. The standard paintkit would actually provide for the " I just want to tweak one thing" where as the repainters who like to repaint or start afresh also have an option.

To fend off the " evil megacorp developers always after my cash " comments... a paintkit that could be used in one of the previously mentioned products is the source code. That should be paid for.

 

[Mach3DS]

There are already plenty of paint kits that exist for other sims and other games that are PBR, which function exactly like the way things work now for FSX/P3D. There's no issues whatsoever with creating a paint kit for PBR, even if you changed nothing and just released a layered PSD as is done now with majority that are out there. If you want to use the 3D painting techniques, that another story altogether. But that is NOT required for PBR paint kits for the masses. I wouldn't expect it either from any dev. The Quixel route is really for the developer, not really the end user. DCS, War Thunder, X-Plane all have standard paint kits -- there's no real reason that a standard paint kit which already exists for FSX couldn't be used for ALL platforms. In fact I used the FSX Mirage 2000C paint kit for all my DCS Mirage paints.

EDIT: Actually there is one thing, that would need to be taken into consideration, but it easily solved. AO. You'd need to make sure you can turn it OFF in a layer in the kit and that it's not painted directly into the Albedo(diffuse). This way it can be used in the RED channel of the associated no spec file for shadows.

The Only thing not the same is the "Spec" file which controls the PBR materials (for example in DCS). Those files are released with each stock paint by the developers, but they do not release a paint kit for those files. If users want to edit those, they must do so themselves. Which is what I have done. Either way, there shouldn't be any problems associated with reapints for PBR platforms. Unless you want to provide end users with the developer level 3D-model for use in Quixel (which is not required for repaints), then essentially nothing has changed...other than your personal work flow. WHich as shown by Gordon here is significantly reduced using these new tools (at least it looks that way from what I've been reading)...But I don't think there's any expectation that you devs would need to provide a 3D painting model or something....I certainly have no expectation for it.

 

[roger-wilco-66]

Making a paint kit out of the Quixel layer stack is not so difficult. If you collapse the proper part of the layer stack you get a single psd for each map. Depending on what you merge, you can even collapse it in a way so a set of sub layers stay intact, without the masking layers for instance.

The question is what purpose the paint kit should serve - repainting in Quixel, for example, or the classical way. And what type of paint kit, e.g. a flat diffuse base with burned repaint layers or whatever.

I'm sure there's a way to make that for any type. Producing a good paint kit is always a considerable chunk of work, whichever way one goes.


Cheers,
Mark

 

[Mach3DS]

Making a paint kit out of the Quixel layer stack is not so difficult. If you collapse the proper part of the layer stack you get a single psd for each map. Depending on what you merge, you can even collapse it in a way so a set of sub layers stay intact, without the masking layers for instance.

The question is what purpose the paint kit should serve - repainting in Quixel, for example, or the classical way. And what type of paint kit, e.g. a flat diffuse base with burned repaint layers or whatever.

I'm sure there's a way to make that for any type. Producing a good paint kit is always a considerable chunk of work, whichever way one goes.


Cheers,
Mark

Good point, I have NO IDEA how to create one from Quixel! But as far as what kind of repaint kit...I really don't think that providing a 3D model for use in Quixel is required. All of the pain kits I've seen are for use in the classic method. Unless there's some way of importing the .mdl into Quixel then I don't think we'll have a clean solution to this question.

 

[gman5250]

Bearing in mind that Ray Tracing will now be increasingly relevant to any conversation about development, as it pertains to third party paint kits. At the moment, and for the foreseeable future, the business and technical decisions relating to providing state-of-the-art products will be subject to the variables associated to delivery systems i.e. GPU, CPU and simulator platforms.

Example: The multiple iterations of Prepar3D, and the seemingly endless updates required to keep product current can be burdensome...to put it mildly. As the environment evolves, each developer will need to determine exactly where they want to be in the process.

It is also noteworthy that many "skinners" will not have access to the software and plugins required to work at the levels we are covering in this forum. For example, I just installed the VRay plugin for 3DS Max for a thirty day evaluation, after which an additional $1,180 USD would be required to work with a plug in to a $3,600 program. Developers can amortize these expenses, but "skinners" are increasingly looking at levels of sophistication that price them out of their hobby.

 

[Priller]

VRay plugin for 3DS Max for a thirty day evaluation, after which an additional $1,180 USD would be required to work with a plug in to a $3,600 program. Developers can amortize these expenses, but "skinners" are increasingly looking at levels of sophistication that price them out of their hobby.

Quite, those are not "hobby" prices anymore... Just my two cents worth...

Priller

 

[roger-wilco-66]

Good point, I have NO IDEA how to create one from Quixel! But as far as what kind of repaint kit...I really don't think that providing a 3D model for use in Quixel is required. All of the pain kits I've seen are for use in the classic method. Unless there's some way of importing the .mdl into Quixel then I don't think we'll have a clean solution to this question.

Painting in 3d is not very practical in many cases anyhow, in my opinion. I just worked in NDo creating a bump map for a while and had problems with curved surfaces and geometry close to the brush, or above the spot (screws on panels) where I wanted to paint. So I marked the desired spots in 3d in the right locations and did the detailing on the flat map, erasing the marks again. What is nice though is that you can check the results more or less in real time on the 3d model, that saves quite some time going back and forth between applications or reloading textures.


Cheers,
Mark

 

[TuFun]

Quite, those are not "hobby" prices anymore... Just my two cents worth...

Priller

Blender maybe an option since V-Ray plugin is $350.

https://www.chaosgroup.com/vray/blender

 

[Mach3DS]

Painting in 3d is not very practical in many cases anyhow, in my opinion. I just worked in NDo creating a bump map for a while and had problems with curved surfaces and geometry close to the brush, or above the spot (screws on panels) where I wanted to paint. So I marked the desired spots in 3d in the right locations and did the detailing on the flat map, erasing the marks again. What is nice though is that you can check the results more or less in real time on the 3d model, that saves quite some time going back and forth between applications or reloading textures.


Cheers,
Mark

Righto! Sounds like it would save a LOT of time doing things like panel lines and rivet/fasteners, and work leading up to the bump map. Most "repainters/skinners" don't actually edit these. And this is what I've found with the DCS crowd as well. Most repainters don't even bother with the PBR files at all. They keep the stock ones and don't mess with anything else. There's A LOT of talented artists over there as well. I am actually blown away by the volume of repainters in that community. But, even so, must don't edit the spec files. Which is where the fine details are done, and what elevates certain repaints above the rest IMHO. Not all repaints will require editing the PBR files either. So in many many cases, repaints will be MUCH easier with better looking results for most users.

 

[pilto von pilto]

My pay-ntkit ( tm ) idea was basically a way where the login method could work without a large cost to the developer that would have been pushed on to the normal/standard consumer. So normal paintkits are the way to go. That's good cos I really dont see devs being happy in sending out source code.

Ok Gman5250 more video's please

 

[Mach3DS]

This is what I'm hoping will happen to P3Dv4+ (Heatblur F-14B on final) -- These guys have done it right

 

[TuFun]

^ That is real as it gets! Artwork is breathtaking!!! Lighting is very realistic and natural, not cartoony.

 

[Mach3DS]

Yes, in my opinion, this is likely the most advanced flight Sim module ever developed for any platform at any time, available for PC. I've been following with keen interest, and listening to every interview and reading everything they have officially published regarding it's development. Based on years of Flight simming and RL experienced and education, that is the conclusion I've come to. The art work, sound, music, marketing are nothing less than Tony Stark worthy effort. I have NO connection to them other than I'm a fan. I don't own any of their previous products. But my gut, and my brain are confirming to me that this is going to be big.

 

[Mach3DS]

 

[SH427]

Yes, in my opinion, this is likely the most advanced flight Sim module ever developed for any platform at any time, available for PC. I've been following with keen interest, and listening to every interview and reading everything they have officially published regarding it's development. Based on years of Flight simming and RL experienced and education, that is the conclusion I've come to. The art work, sound, music, marketing are nothing less than Tony Stark worthy effort. I have NO connection to them other than I'm a fan. I don't own any of their previous products. But my gut, and my brain are confirming to me that this is going to be big.

Having flown their Viggen and the Mig-21, the F-14 promises to be a milestone. Heatblur products are the yardstick upon which all others will be judged, personally.

 

[Flyboy208]

Best in game rendering of a GENTEX HGU-33 helmet that I have ever seen. Wow ! Mike